76. Wu-Tang Clan Manager “Eva Ries” on incredible experiences with the iconic hip hop clan!

So, if you talk to the ancient Romans, or generally speaking, I would really say that what I often quote, what I’ve often told my daughter, this “per aspera ad astra,” through hardship to the stars, yes, that’s truly it. Taking the harder path sometimes pays off. So, through the rocky road to the stars. Hi everyone and welcome to Project Mindset, the channel for all those who know for sure that with the right mindset, anything is possible in life.

Today I have a very special guest, and I’m really looking forward to our conversation. It’s with Eva Ries, the longtime manager and promoter of the legendary Wu-Tang Clan, an absolute hip-hop legend. And not only that, she’s managed not only the Wu-Tang Clan, but also Nirvana and Guns N’ Roses. So it’s truly mind-blowing for me to be able to talk to her about her experiences with them, and I’m really looking forward to our conversation. I’ll see you in a bit.

The path to the book about the Wu-Tang Clan

Eva, thank you so much for your time today. I’m a huge fan of yours. Your book was the first thing I heard about. I thought to myself, hey, how did Eva Ries and the Wu-Tang Clan come about? I didn’t quite understand it until I did some research, bought the book, and realized what an interesting story it actually is. So, thank you so much for letting me talk with you today, and thank you for making this podcast possible.

Thank you. You’re a manager, promoter, and much more, I’d say, for, how should I put it, one of the biggest music bands of all time. In the hip-hop scene, definitely. I think many people will know Wu-Tang Clan. But what I also found interesting, and what I didn’t know before, is that you were also a manager for Nirvana and Guns N’ Roses, for example. I just think that’s crazy. Those are truly world-class names, or bands. And then I wondered, can you plan a career like that?

The role on the side of the record company

So, when we talk about being a manager, you always have to put things into perspective and say, I was a manager on the record company side. I wasn’t the personal manager. That’s something else entirely. I wasn’t responsible for making sure Nirvana, Guns N’ Roses, and Wu-Tang Clan deposited their fees at the bank, filed their taxes, took their clothes to the dry cleaners, or anything like that. That’s the personal manager’s job. But on the label’s side, in the case of Nirvana and Guns N’ Roses, my role was to promote their careers in Germany, so to speak.

to handle their marketing in Germany. And with Wu-Tang Clan, it was their international career. Yes, I was responsible for that, of course. So, you have to differentiate a bit for the layperson. Because many people lump everything together, and that doesn’t do it justice. Yes, you can’t really plan a career like that. I also tried, in a way, to first gain a foothold in Germany and get started in the music industry, which wasn’t easy. Which is precisely why I took the detour via America.

Career opportunities in the USA

Because in Germany, they didn’t really want to give me a chance. In Germany, it was the case that practically no one could get a job as a product manager or marketing manager without a business degree. I didn’t have one. And it’s quite bureaucratic here, it still is. But back then, in the early 90s, it was even more so. In the US, the principle is more that you can prove yourself by simply doing it. And if you do it well, that’s fine.

And if you do badly, you get kicked out and fired. Yes, but it’s more about performance than the paperwork you have or the certificates you’ve amassed. Yes, in Germany it’s less performance-oriented and more about the CV. What did he do? Where did he study? What did he study? And if it was business administration, then that’s good, and everything else was irrelevant. That felt counterproductive to me, because the music industry is a creative business.

And that shouldn’t just be measured in numbers and forecasts; you need a certain flexibility and creative imagination. Super interesting. So, to come back to how exactly you joined Wu-Tang Clan. Because I understood from your book that you joined them before they were really successful. Yes, I was there at the very beginning with Wu-Tang Clan, right when their first album, Enter the Thirty-Six Chambers, had just been released in the US.

Continued

However, success wasn’t immediate. It was quite a long road, after all. Of course, it was a bit shorter there. There was the first single, “Protect Your Neck.” As far as I know, the second single was “Casuals,” followed by “Everything Around Me” and “Cream.” You’re really deep into it, you can tell. Yes, I remember that too, because those were the milestones. And for me, the first challenge was convincing our partners in the international territories to even release the album.

It wasn’t a sure thing. Very few people had even heard of them as a group with huge potential. What I find interesting is that I first heard of the Wu-Tang Clan back in my school days. And suddenly, you saw their logo everywhere. It’s kind of an iconic logo, you could say. It became so branded, and eventually, it was like, yeah, that’s hip-hop. But I find it interesting that you were already into them before they became so mainstream.

And that got me wondering, because that’s how I understood it from the book—they were pretty chaotic people you worked with, or maybe had to work with—whether you could even call it a dream job back then, when you joined them? I mean, I don’t think even I myself considered it a dream job, quite honestly. To me, it was simply a job. I never dreamed of working with the Wu-Tang Clan or even knew who they were.

From rock music to hip-hop

I mean, I came from a completely different background. I came from rock, and my favorite music was hard rock and heavy metal. And I wasn’t a hip-hop fan at all. So how was I supposed to dream about it? It was, I’d say, pure chance. And I just had to do it. I mean, it wasn’t a free choice to say, okay, I’m going to work with Wu-Tang Clan. I simply accepted the job as International Marketing Manager. And Wu-Tang Clan, it came with the territory.

You know, it was simple, basically, that’s just how it was. I mean, in my naivety, I’d imagined I’d be working perfectly with Sisi. But that wasn’t the case, it was like this. In your book, you can also read quite interestingly how, as I just said, it really was a chaotic bunch. Everyone had their own mind. Arguments were practically the norm. If I now try to draw a parallel to the typical workday, where you might also have to work in teams where there are perhaps a few chaotic individuals here and there.

Working with an unusual team

I can hardly imagine working with more than one chaotic person on a team. But if the whole team consists of chaotic people, that’s a real challenge. And I wondered, how did you manage that? That you, well, you must have been unpunctual, or simply, you couldn’t rely on them. Well, you just have to get over it eventually. At some point, I didn’t really care anymore about their unpunctuality, whether they were an hour late or an hour and a half.

I tried to explain to the journalists that they would just have to wait. I mean, what could I do? But eventually everyone knew that nothing ever started on time. So, I stopped getting worked up about things like that. I mean, about unpunctuality. Did you go into the whole thing with that mindset? Like, “I’m not going to get upset,” or did you have to learn that first? No, I had to learn it first, because I didn’t know they were so extremely unpunctual or unreliable, or that they constantly changed their minds, or that they were moody.

Chaos and professional standards

I didn’t know that at the beginning. So I had to get used to it over time. What impact did that have on your professional work? Because I get the impression that you’re very professional in what you do and how you do it. The book, of course, too. But when I’m constantly surrounded by, let’s say, unprofessional behavior all day long, I did wonder how you dealt with it. How did you manage, mentally speaking, to say, “No, I’m going to continue working professionally,” or “I’m not going to give up and I’m going to keep going anyway”?

Because the stories also include some serious stuff. We’re talking about drug crime and so on. There are some really intense things that make me wonder how long you can even continue working professionally in that environment. Yeah, well, I’ve always tried to make the best of the situation. I’m also very, yeah, I can be emotional, I can get angry and upset or something. But I can also be very stoic and stubborn.

Continued

And then I pretty much block it out. Excuse me, I mean, whatever bothers me, I block it out to such an extent that I still, or rather, I’ve chosen the two or three in the band who I know are relatively reliable, and then I preferentially work with them, simply ignoring the others. I’ve also wondered how one should strategically handle that. These questions are deliberate: listeners, including women, have often told me they struggle to assert themselves in a group.

I find it difficult to assert my opinion. And I think that’s especially true in a large group like yours. I believe you’re probably dealing with a lot of, well, I don’t know if this is the right word, but alpha types who are quite stubborn and want to get their way. Could you tell us a bit about your strategy? If I were to ask you how I can deal with such people in my daily life, what would you recommend? In this case, there were nine people with extremely difficult personalities, or some had difficult personalities, or they simply didn’t get along.

Find reliable contacts

Very ecocentric. Everyone thought they were the best rapper, and there were huge egos in the band. But for me, to simply do my job, I chose the people I knew were reliable or with whom I probably had a very good relationship. So, depending on the day, it also depended on how I felt, but mostly it was Method Man and maybe Ray Korn and New God. And I could rely on them pretty well. I almost never used Ghostfest because that always ended in chaos.

So, I basically ignored Ghost because he was the guy who fell asleep twice during an interview. And if that happened, I’d first have to explain things to a journalist, or rather, console a journalist who came up and said, “Ghost fell asleep during my interview.” Well, and then I usually just brought in a replacement. The good thing was, because the group was so big, I always had a backup. I always had the option of introducing them to the others, or giving this journalist this band member, then the next one, and Rizzo was often unavailable because he was also a producer.

Dealing with different personalities

Ghostfest was difficult. Tizza was often someone I could call on because he’s very sensible, very calm, and very articulate. So, I basically chose whoever was available, who approached me first, or who agreed to help first. I think, as I understand it, you tried to start with small teams. Do you also have to earn some kind of respect first? Like, sometimes you have to put your foot down and say, “Guys, this isn’t acceptable.”

Of course, I had to, obviously. I had to earn their respect first, of course. Did you feel comfortable or uncomfortable about it? Not uncomfortable. I mean, I’m someone who doesn’t tolerate much nonsense. So if things are really going completely wrong, then I’ll just say, “This far and no further.” And I think people believed me because I’m very authentic and very honest. And that honesty went down extremely well with the clan, because that’s exactly what Raekwon always said. She ‘s keeping it real.

Honesty as a basis for work

Yes, and even to this day Rizza says that whoever really wants to hear what’s real, asks Eva. Crazy. So, and that’s exactly how it is. And I’m known for not bending over backwards or lying or twisting the truth three times just because someone prefers to hear it that way. I’m completely honest. For example, I told Nas, who often asked me what I would do with the remix, or what I would do here or there. And I told him quite honestly, yes, I would change the remix, or I would change the hook.

Or sometimes he’d play me things that weren’t finished yet. Even though I wasn’t an A&R person, he’d play me things, songs. And then I’d say, “Look, for England we need to do something a little different, because this wouldn’t get airplay. I’d do this and that.” And most of the time he listened. Yeah, so I’m someone who doesn’t just tell the artist, “Oh, it’s all great the way you have it,” but also says, “I’d make changes here,” or “I’d improve this for these markets,” or “I’d…”

Plain speaking instead of mere agreement

And often they’re grateful that you say that, yes. But the problem with Wu-Tang, just like with Nas or Exhibit, is that they were very often surrounded by yes-men. Yes, who of course wanted to stay in the good graces and simply, yes, just wanted to be the friends, and friends don’t like to say, “That’s not good enough,” or “I would change Huck here,” or “I would…” Right? And I didn’t care, it was my job, and I actually thought I could help the guys the most by being honest and helping them progress, and not by saying, like every other yes-man, “Yes, what you’re doing is great.”

Continued

I also get the impression that you were quite successful in convincing the clan members, let’s call them that for now, to do certain things. You have a story that seems almost absurd to me, but I mean, we’re talking about musicians who earn a fair amount of money and who still steal things on tour, for example. Like that story with the Dorn Perignon bottle, where you said, “No, that bottle has to be returned.” And I was surprised that he actually did it…

Who was that again? Ghost. Right, that he listened to you and brought it back. Well, he listened under duress, because by then I’d stirred up the rest of the clan and they all said, “We’re not leaving until you return those things,” because I’d given the bus driver orders that we weren’t leaving until Ghost brought back the two bottles of champagne. The clan was so worked up by then, and I’m so angry with him because he was still arguing with me, that they were saying, “Just bring that crap back already, because you know we’re not leaving until then.”

Enforcing boundaries together

Because they sort of gave in to me. They said, okay, Eva said we’re not leaving, so we’re not leaving until the idiot returns the bottles. And then he collectively felt the pressure. So not just from me, but from the whole band. In that context, what do you think the Clan members learned most from you? Learned from me? Hmm, good question. That you might have to open yourself up to other cultures. Yeah, because that was something I had to do, and step outside my comfort zone.

And they had to, because they only knew the Black community in their socially disadvantaged neighborhood. Basically, they’d never even been outside of it. They didn’t have any white friends; the only white people they knew were teachers, police officers, and, well, sort of the so-called state authorities, but not in their personal lives. And conversely, what did they learn from you? What did I learn? What did you learn from them, to put it another way? Well, that sometimes you really have to be bold and dare to do things.

Composure and a touch of cheekiness

And maybe you also have to let things slide. And also, yes, I think I’ve learned a bit more cheekiness. I was already quite cheeky, but I think I’ve developed a certain, how do you say it, coolness in the sense of just doing something and seeing it through, and it’ll all work out. Yes, that’s something the clan is actually very good at. Can you elaborate on what you mean by cheeky? By cheeky, I mean things that others wouldn’t do. Like, for example, when Odi B always said, “Look, Eva, I’ve stolen something for you again.”

Yes, it was like this: he saw a beautiful duvet in a hotel in Switzerland and thought, “I’d be delighted if he gave it to me.” I was just completely taken in. And at some point, I didn’t think anything of it anymore, just bringing all the stolen goods onto the bus. And we equipped the bus nicely with down pillows and things like that. That’s what I mean, anyway, but I can’t really put it into practice now.

Responding to challenges with humor

Well, I wasn’t exactly going on a looting spree, but I somehow learned to a) not get upset about it and b) just take these things with a relaxed smile and put them away. And yeah, actually I thought it was quite nice, because he meant it positively. I mean, he even said, “This is a gift for you, and you’ll laugh, I still have that blanket today.” And it’s excellent quality. You can wash it endlessly, so it’s really great quality.

And I owe that to him. Then one day, he got so angry with me that I was supposedly walking around the airport like a bum, carrying an Aldi bag with some belongings stuffed in it. My luggage was checked. I did have a handbag, of course, but I was also carrying around some charging cables, or I don’t know what they were, or a water bottle, and I had them all in some kind of bag—not an Aldi bag, but just any old bag.

And then one day Dirty got so worked up that he said, “I can’t walk around with you like this. If you’re going to walk around with me, you need a proper bag, and I’m going to buy you one right now.” And then, almost impulsively, he went to a Laura Ashley store in Amsterdam with me at the airport. Before that, we’d been to Bali, where he bought some shoes. And then he saw me again with that bag and said, “No, no, I’m buying you a decent bag now.”

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Pick out a big handbag or a small suitcase, anything at all. And then I had to pick out a beautiful little suitcase with a Laura Ashley floral pattern, made of canvas. He bought it for me. And from then on, I only ever used his. I almost thought he stole it. No, he didn’t. But he bought it, and from then on, I was only allowed to use his bag. That’s just how he was. Yeah, they had some really strange ideas.

So at some point, it just didn’t matter what you wore anymore. And then all of a sudden, practically overnight, it was like, “No, no, no, we’re not going around like that anymore.” Now we need nicer things. And now we have to buy high-end items. I find it incredibly interesting. It seems to me that these are the kinds of people who change their minds about things relatively frequently. Yes, yes, of course. They can be very hot-tempered and so on. Perhaps what I also found interesting is—let me start with an example from my own life.

I’ve noticed that when someone is very assertive in some way, they usually manage to handle it if you’re assertive in return. Yeah, sure. Exactly. Meaning, if someone’s really pushing their way through with me, and I know I can react the same way, they might take it badly at first, but not hold it against me in the long run. And I got the feeling you acted the same way. Those were some nice stories, of course, but also some of the more intense ones from the book.

Maintain composure in conflicts

I then wondered, if you ever stood up, if you ever really yelled at one of them, if you described or told a story about a situation where one of them stood up, yelled back at you, and threatened to hit you in the face. Yeah, the Maschkeller, yeah. Exactly, that’s when I wondered, where did you see certain limits, certain boundaries? Were there situations like that, for example? Did you feel like you had crossed a limit, a boundary, so to speak, that you had overstepped it?

Did you see anything like that back then? To be perfectly honest, I didn’t think he’d actually hit me. I mean, he threatened me at that moment, but somehow I knew—otherwise I would have immediately moved out of harm’s way—I knew he wouldn’t actually do it, just a gut feeling. So I didn’t back down much at all; I just screamed right back. I said, “If you do anything, I’ll sue you.”

React spontaneously and set boundaries

Then you don’t even know your own name anymore. And I said that immediately, right then and there. I didn’t say it to escalate things further, it just happened that way. Yes, and then, like I said, he thought about it for a moment, apologized, and kissed me. And then the matter was settled. Are you a resentful person? No, I’m not resentful at all. Did you have to learn that, or have you always been like that? I’ve actually never been resentful. And especially not with these guys, because they’re incredibly hot-tempered, and then there’s a lot of shouting and everyone just goes wild.

And then, how should I put it, shortly after that everything’s all sunshine and rainbows again. I mean, I respect that. One trait I’d like to change about myself is holding grudges. Not holding grudges anymore. And I actually got the impression from the book that you’re not one for holding grudges. No, I wasn’t. But is there anything you haven’t forgiven? Any behavior? Yes, if someone was really, how should I say, mean, if someone was nasty or malicious or something.

Assessing impulsive situations

So the good thing about those guys was, basically, they weren’t particularly strategic. They didn’t plan ahead. They didn’t do anything premeditated. That’s just how it was. It was all really spontaneous. And you know what I mean? If I had the feeling they were planning something, something really underhanded, something nasty… They weren’t the type of guys who would have done that. They weren’t that strategic. No, and not malicious either, basically.

So, this whole thing about arguments and heated exchanges, that was really just a matter of temperament, yeah. It wasn’t planned at all. It was all impulsive. And I can always forgive that more easily than someone who’s actually planning to trap you or plotting to enrich themselves or something like that. They never really did that. So… you had to fight quite a few little battles against them. Almost daily, I had that impression.

Continued

Were there, however, deliberate conflicts, in quotation marks, where you thought, oh no, I really should say something now. But I deliberately didn’t, because I knew that… Well, when it was like that, these trench warfare battles they were waging against each other, like when Team Break One and Ghost went up against Team RZA and JZA or something, I… It was too ridiculous for me to get involved, even though they would have liked me to.

No, I just tried to tune it out or walk away, you know… I’m quite sensitive about how someone behaves or speaks to me. So I just don’t tolerate certain things. I can get a bit worked up myself, unfortunately, if someone behaves completely inappropriately towards me. I get the impression you’re good with that sort of thing… How should I put it? Without sounding like a weird alarm bell. But you’ve handled it well when someone has behaved really inappropriately.

How serenity grows with experience

How did you manage to achieve this composure? I’m not asking selflessly. No, I’m not going to freak out just because he’s acting like an idiot towards me. I’m staying calm. If I were to ask you… Well, I didn’t stay that calm either. Maybe I left that out in the book. I wasn’t extremely calm, and there are many stories I didn’t even describe. But there’s one thing, for example, that wasn’t described at all in the book.

But ODB really got on my nerves. He… What did he do? I’m trying to remember. I don’t even know what it was… Oh yeah, right. He left me a totally crazy, hateful message on the answering machine at Loud Records—I worked in the Loud Records office. On my… Well, back then we didn’t have cell phones and all that, just the landline thingy. And it had this built-in… You know, those office phones that you could put on speakerphone and stuff.

A message on the answering machine

And there was this built-in answering machine. Well, it left a crazy message that left us all absolutely stunned. It went something like this… What the fuck do you think you ‘re doing, Eva? Why and what? And you think you can play me? I am telling you I am… It was a load of nonsense. And I had absolutely no idea what it was about, what he was even talking about. It was just… He’s not going to let me get away with any of this anymore. And he finally wants his motherfucking money.

I want my money. I want my motherfucking… And it went on and on. And I just thought, you idiot, what’s going on? I don’t have any money. Where was the money anyway? Money was always the issue. And then I just said, no, well, and Randy, I was sharing a room with Randy Roberts, our Head of Sales. He said, can you put a grime on that? And we kept listening to this crazy message over and over. And he was screaming so loudly in his excitement that it was totally distorted on that machine.

Respond clearly to disrespect

Yes, like, really like that… So, and then I really said, no, I’m not going to put up with that. Yes, he’s going to get what’s coming to him . I’m calling him right now. And if he doesn’t answer, of his own free will—he definitely won’t answer because he knows what I have to say—then I’m going to leave him a message right now. And then it actually happened that he… No, he didn’t answer. And when I answered his call, I just said, in a very calm voice, listen, I never want to hear a message like that from you again.

I have absolutely no idea what you want. You were spitting with anger, with hysteria, and with all that rage. And everything is so, how should I say, distorted that no one can understand you anymore. What’s the point of all this? What a load of motherfucking money, you asshole. And somehow, and I just, I just fired back. And then I said, and if I do it again, and if you don’t apologize to me now, that’s the point, I expect an apology.

Demand an apology

If you don’t apologize, I’ll never lift a finger for you again in my entire life, do you realize that? And boom, and so I hit up. And then shortly after, the phone rang. Funnily enough, Randy was my witness, he was laughing his head off too, then it was ODB on the line and he said, “I ‘m so sorry, Eva, it will never happen again.” And I was, “You are my true queen, you ‘re my darling, you ‘re my everything.” Oh my God, it went on and on. And then it was over, and then I had to laugh again.

Continued

At that moment I really had to laugh because it was so absurd how he apologized that I said, okay, okay, fine. But I wanted to hear an apology. You know, so it was simple, and that’s actually the best method, as you yourself said, to strike back with exactly the same tactics. Because sometimes certain people only understand that kind of language. It’s no use arguing logically or anything like that.

Do you have to be just as emotional and say, “What are you doing?” And “I will never, ever, ever, ever do this again.” Anyway, what a motherfucking amount of money. And so on and so forth. Just as emotionally as he came, I left the message and then said I expected an apology. And about 20 minutes later, the apology came. Yes, so even he understood, it’s over now. I have to use that strategy too. And he was afraid that I would really dump him, that I would never do anything for him again, because he always had this theory, he told me, “You ‘re my partner in crime.”

Trust despite difficult moments

I said, hopefully not. Am I not your partner in crime, with all the stuff he’s done? Yeah. But he’s always seen me that way, and he’s always considered me, well, well, an important person in his life. And if I’d suddenly broken up with him because he ruined the relationship, then… You also described beautifully in the book the special relationship with ODB, with All-Terriverse, which I found very interesting. That at the beginning you didn’t get along so well, and then…

Well, at first he was extremely paranoid and told everyone I was infiltrating the clan and selling the information I obtained to the government, and so on and so forth. I mean, he was extremely paranoid, and they all had conspiracy theories, obviously. And then, when someone like that comes along, from the outside, everyone naturally wonders, “Which intelligence agency is she working for?” And I constantly had to reassure everyone that I wasn’t working for the FBI or anyone else, and that Bill Clinton wasn’t personally paying me—that would have been just great.

Absurd conversations in everyday work life

I said, guys, if it were true that all these government agencies were paying me, then I wouldn’t have to sit here and do this crap with you. Then I’d be like this, then I’d be, you know? These are such absurd conversations. It’s so absurd, it’s so absurd. I mean, I’d be sitting in Washington right now, collecting my money, but not with you guys, right? It’s… It’s absurd, funny. I don’t even know what to say about it. Yeah, it was so absurd. It’s like having to constantly proclaim your innocence and keep saying, no, no, I’m not a spy.

You know, I’m not a double agent either. But it’s so annoying. Before the interview, an acquaintance of mine brought it up. I thought it was an interesting question. I told her I’d be discussing it with her, and she asked if it actually made a difference that you, as a white woman, were dealing with a group of people who were completely different. Was it very advantageous or disadvantageous? I don’t know if you understood my question… I think it was an advantage.

One’s own role in the group

I think, and I’ve been asked this a lot, I believe it was still an advantage. Why? Because I had a bit of an exotic status. Because, just think, if I had been a Black man, there would have been terrible rivalry. If I had been a white man, he would have gotten punched in the face. If I had been a Black woman, they would have shown zero respect. So, now I was a white woman. No one would have punched me. Thank God, as a man, they would have. And above all, I wasn’t exactly suited to hold a pissing contest.

Any guy would have done that. Or any guy would have tried way too hard to be a homie. Yeah, I’m the homie. And I never did that. It was way too stupid for me. They knew I wasn’t a homie. You know? So, it was basically the ultimate in contrast. Yeah, I think in retrospect it was actually better. Interesting. And I think it gave me a kind of special status. Yeah, I was treated differently and seen differently.

And on the other hand, they also tried to protect me. I mean, it often happened that when I was out with the clan in those strange neighborhoods, where I was sometimes the only white person, like in Brooklyn or Spetsdae or Compton—we even went to South Central—they were always around me like bodyguards. I mean, nobody ever did anything to me. That was the nice thing about it. I could really rely on them. Super interesting.

Continued

On the one hand, they’re kind of shooting at you, on the other hand, they’re protecting you. Yeah, after the initial paranoia subsided. So, I think that was also the thing, that I proved myself, in the sense that they suddenly realized I was loyal. This group basically functioned like a street gang. And what does a street gang do? They have a certain code of honor, they’re extremely paranoid about everything from the outside, they always want to test whether you’re going to defect to someone else.

And if you’ve performed certain actions that cement loyalty, then you’re clearly accepted into the group or the family. They saw the whole thing as a family unit. They always said, “You ‘re part of the family. This is family.” And of course, it was a dysfunctional family, but at least it was a family. I can only speak for myself. Especially if I had faced as much resistance at the beginning as you did, all the accusations that I was with the secret service and so on.

I don’t know… Yeah, but that was funny. I mean, you can’t take that seriously. Would I have ever said, “Guys, no, this is too much for me. I don’t want to work in a group like that.” How did you motivate yourself to keep going? I mean, it probably took quite a while until you were accepted. Yeah, it took a few weeks. I think I didn’t really have an alternative. There was no other option. I had to do it.

Persevere despite resistance

I would have had to go to my boss and say, “Sorry, I can’t work with this band.” And then what? Well, that would have been like admitting bankruptcy. You wrote a sentence that really stuck with me, like, “I ‘m not a critter.” Yeah, exactly. I’m not giving up. Did you go into it with the mindset that you wouldn’t give up, or did that develop over time? Yeah, I don’t think I went into it with that mindset, because I had no idea how difficult it would be.

So, I think it evolved. What motivated you to say, “I’m going to get up every morning and give powerful guys a run for their money,” and keep doing that? I simply recognized potential in those guys, and that really motivated me. Potential definitely developed in them, I’d say. They’re still active, as far as I understand. Could you perhaps briefly summarize why you think the Wu-Tang Clan members followed you, followed your instructions?

Gain respect through reliability

So, you’ve already mentioned a few things about how you stood up for yourself and so on. But could you summarize what I can take away from this today? Well, I think they realized, especially over time, that what I said, what I advised, or what I promoted, actually led to success. That all the things I did were good things. After a while, they basically knew that I wasn’t leading them astray. When did you realize that you were, in a sense, a clan member, that you now belonged to the family?

Was there a trigger point? No, there wasn’t one. You can’t really pinpoint it. Can’t you? No. It’s incredibly interesting. I could go on about it for hours… No, I mean, what was funny, which I didn’t include in the book because it might have been totally childish, is that they actually said, “You need your own Wu-Tang name, and you need your street name, and you don’t even have one.”

A special name from the group

And then I said, my goodness, what’s this supposed to be? And where do we even begin? I have no idea. I don’t necessarily need one. Yes. And then they all said, yes, yes, you need one, which I never actually used or revealed. And then Inspector Deck, who’s really good with that kind of stuff, came along. He actually came up with my street name and said, Evil-E Killer-B. Evil-E Killer-B. That’s cool. And it really is cool, right? And then Method Man immediately said, yeah, and now that you have a street name, you have to start rapping or making beats.

Then I said I see myself more as a producer. Honestly. I mean, my beats… and then I actually had this crazy deal with Whistle, but we didn’t go through with it because I’m not really a technical person. I said that when he retired his old sampler, the old MPC, I’d take it over and try to make my baby beats, so to speak. He said, “Okay, you can have that, you can.” But we never actually did it, to be honest.

Continued

But we were toying with the idea that I would then make my beats. And then Method Man said I would even rap over your beats. Thank God it never came to that. So that’s all still up in the air. So thank God the hip-hop world has been denied the chance to hear my killer beats so far. But hey, we can always do that if there’s another pandemic, right? I find these stories so amusing. Yeah, it really is amusing. Like I said before, partly absurd, grotesque, funny, and then again dangerous.

In the book, you discuss many such stories. I highly recommend everyone take a look. And of course, I don’t want to take up too much of your time. No, no, no. Thank you so much for your time. Before I get to my last question, I wanted to ask you where people who follow you online can find out more about you as a person? I’m not really an online person, but I have been on Instagram for a few months now. My daughter set it up for me.

Yes, well, you can use Instagram… Otherwise, I don’t really have anything. Okay. Guys, definitely follow this friendly lady here. There are some super interesting stories there. So, Instagram is under Wu-Tang is forever, because I really related that to the book. Yes, very nice, very nice. Now I come to my final question, which I ask every guest. Which mindset has had the greatest influence on your life? Again? What? Which mindset, which attitude has had the greatest impact, the most positive impact on your life?

Per aspera ad astra: Through hardship to the stars

Hmm, well, if you talk to the ancient Romans, or generally speaking, I would really say that what I often quote, what I’ve often told my daughter, this “per aspera ad astra,” through hardship to the stars. Yes, that’s really it. Taking the harder path sometimes pays off. So, through the rocky road to the stars. Wow, great closing question. I really think there’s a lot of truth to that, yes. Yes, I also believe that you’ve proven it on your own life’s journey, that you’ve walked through the rocky paths.

Because I really could have taken shortcuts or easier routes, or simply taken the path of least resistance. But that probably wouldn’t have led to the same result. Yes, yes. Eva, thank you so much for your time, and I hope that we might be able to disagree sometime. Yes, I enjoyed it. Thank you very much, Eva. Thank you, thank you.