72. Success through toxic behavior? Why that’s not such a good idea…

Hi everyone and welcome to Project Mindset, the channel for all those who know that with the right mindset, anything is possible. A while ago, I had the opportunity to give a short presentation at a startup. It’s run by an acquaintance of mine, and he has a few employees. I spoke to his team about leadership. The first question after the presentation was actually quite interesting. It was about whether you have to be a complete idiot to be successful in business.

That was definitely a super interesting question for me. I’ll play the question back in a moment so you can understand what the person asking meant. But over time, I’ve been wondering if I still think the same way I did back then. I’ve had the opportunity to do podcast interviews with a wide variety of people in the meantime, and I’ve gained a general understanding of how they define success. But I’ve still been wondering if I see it the same way I did then.

I think defining success isn’t quite as simple as it might initially seem. But first, let’s get to the question. Leadership in books is always a bit of a kumbaya topic for me. It all sounds positive, and I believe the best songs that are always positive or kumbayam-like are unsuccessful. I look at Michael Jordan, the biggest jerk of all time, the most successful basketball player. Elon Musk, an incredibly toxic person. Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs, exactly the same.

Why difficult behavior is often tolerated

They were toxic people, and you have to be around them. That’s why people were drawn to them, because they had something magical about them. They knew, “I’ll accept it because I know I’m on a journey into space, and no one else will notice.” So, my question is, where is the fine line you walk? You want to push yourself, you have to push them, and at the same time, you have to understand how people work psychologically. How do I ignite the flame brightest in whom today?

With whom do I sometimes just cut off all oxygen and say, “That was crap, this can’t go on. Go here and get something.” Michael Jordan destroyed the player, but along the way he weeded out the A-plus players and threw the others away. Now, whether it’s right or wrong. Is there such a fine line for you, how do you identify it and how do you perhaps coax out that potential? Or is being toxic sometimes also the right way for you?

And what kind of people? So, to summarize again, he basically wants to know if you have to be a complete idiot to be successful. Here’s my answer. Yes, from my perspective—and I can only really speak from my own experience—exceptional talents like Michael Jordan, Steve Jobs, and so on, who created something great, but at the same time, as you already mentioned, were perhaps even toxic. What I noticed about these talents was that they usually had someone on their team who was, so to speak, the charismatic frontman.

The role of balancing leadership

Steve Jobs, sure, that incredibly slick persona, overshadows everything, but he also had Tim Cook for years. He had someone who created synergies, who managed to make Steve Jobs look really good, but simply struck a different tone with the employees. Bosniak is the same. Bosniak exactly, and I think every toxic leader, as you said, probably has someone who is actually responsible for good leadership. I’m one hundred percent sure of that.

Phil Jackson, I think he was the one who, for example, made people want to work with Michael Jordan in the first place. Michael Jordan, as you say, was a very intense person. His success certainly justifies him to some extent. But on the other hand, you need someone on the team who still provides that balance. I really can’t recommend that anyone say, “I’m going to become a toxic leader now,” because they are still exceptional talents. It might happen, maybe there are still ten such people alive who, despite how toxic they are, have still made it this far.

The vast majority of people, I’d say, should practice leadership in a positive sense. If you’re toxic and can’t change, then at least make sure you have a non-toxic leader on your team. A Zen master like Phil Jackson. For example. That was his name, wasn’t it? Zen master, exactly, that’s what balance in life means to me. You have someone incredibly, ridiculously good, like Michael Jordan, then you need someone else to balance it out. You have Steve Jobs, but then you need Tim Cook.

Continued

He didn’t seem like that before, but he was a top leader within Apple for years. That’s completely overlooked. And now that Steve Jobs is gone, he’s taken over the entire company. You also get the impression that the company’s image has changed a bit. Thanks. You’re welcome. I still think the same way about the answers from back then. I think it’s not a good idea to be a toxic leader or a complete idiot just to feel more successful in some way.

That’s not sustainable, and it’s no fun working in that kind of environment. But what I’ve been wondering about since all the podcast conversations I’ve had the privilege of interviewing successful people is that success isn’t actually that easy to define. It would be incredibly simple to say, “Yes, I simply measure it by how much money I have in the bank,” or “How many people use my products,” or “How far I’ve come in my career,” and so on and so forth.

Find your own definition of success

But I think it’s not that simple. From my perspective, everyone needs their own definition of success. I believe a crucial point is feeling good in some way. So, at the end of the day—as I mentioned earlier in the podcast episode—it really comes down to this: at the end of the day, I’m sitting alone in my room, I have a few minutes to myself, and it’s about how I reflect on myself, on my behavior, on my surroundings, whether I’ve given enough love to everyone who’s important to me, whether everyone around me is healthy.

It’s often the smallest, most varied issues that are incredibly important, and they usually have nothing to do with money. Money plays a significant role in our times, but I think reducing it to simply equating success with having a lot of money in the bank is absolutely the wrong approach. I’ve been thinking about this especially now, since we were talking about Michael Jordan, who is practically without question one of the best basketball players of all time, if not the best.

A look back at Michael Jordan’s speech

He eventually received the award, went into the Hall of Fame—only the best get in there—and you’re allowed to give a speech before receiving the award, about 20 or 25 minutes, which he did. In this speech, he reviewed the past few years and basically lashed out at everyone who had been in his life, who had criticized him or said he wasn’t that good, or whatever. And that really surprised me. I mean, I don’t know if Michael Jordan is happy or not, but he’s undeniably a fantastic basketball player.

But that 20-25 minute speech, which, by the way, can still be found on YouTube, showed me that something was hidden there. He seemed so happy, and like I said, I don’t know if he was happy or not, but apparently he wasn’t. If, after such a successful career, you only have negative things on your mind, everything that’s happened to you, all the naysayers, at the end of the day, if I had a career like that, I would actually wish that I were content with myself.

Success and personal satisfaction

I’ve achieved something that I think is great, and I don’t need to revisit the last 20 years and criticize everyone for everything they did wrong, why they didn’t believe in him, and so on and so forth. I wondered if this was some kind of way for him to use the negative energy he experienced as motivation to become even better, faster, and more successful.

Or whether this negative energy that he’s used all these years—and he even says at certain points that he’s been feeding on this negative energy—has somehow affected his well-being and simply resulted in him projecting negativity outwards. As I said, that’s a difficult question for me. I already hinted at it earlier: success is definitely a kind of balance. I also connect success with being happy. If all areas of my life are in balance—my private life, my health, my sports, my career, my job, or whatever—if they’re all in balance, then I feel happy and successful in some way.

Which path I want to choose myself

But what I definitely know is that I don’t want to act like a complete idiot, like Michael Jordan, or like the guy we talked about in a presentation about Steve Jobs, etc. Just to be able to say at the end of the day, “Yeah, I was the best, I did a great job,” whatever. I think that’s definitely the wrong approach. Of course, I would also like to continue developing and perhaps even redefine success in the future.

Continued

I think, and I’ve just realized this during this presentation, that I think about success differently today than I did a few months ago, even though it might only be a few months in the past. And I believe that’s part of personal development. It’s also very closely linked to the concept of a growth mindset. You want to evolve; you have to be open to new things. That’s why, for example, I talk to other people to understand how they define certain things.

Hey everyone, today’s episode of Project Mindset is as short as usual. I hope you enjoyed it nonetheless. If you did, please give it a like and subscribe to the channel, because that’s the only way Project Mindset can continue to grow. I hope to see you again soon, and until then, remember, mindset is everything.